VC model is broken; displays flying boxes.

Question

VC model is broken; displays flying boxes.

donmccurdy opened this issue 4 years ago · comments

https://cx20.github.io/gltf-test/examples/threejs/index.html?model=VC&scale=0.2

Don McCurdy · Answer 1 · Thu May 13 2021 08:58:18 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Mentioned in KhronosGroup/glTF#1982 (comment), this model also uses the same textures for base color and occlusion, which must be a mistake in the conversion as well...

Marco Hutter · Answer 2 · Thu May 13 2021 20:02:22 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

This model causes a lot of issues, and analyzing and fixing them is a pain in the back. On top of that, it's not always clear whether a certain issue is caused by the source model, COLLADA2GLTF, or the renderer that is used (although the latter could be checked relatively easily, thanks to cx20's test suite).

But it's still one of my favorite models (if not the favorite model), because it combines nearly all features of glTF (1.0, FWIW). I think it's the only model that has multiple cameras, certainly the only one with animated cameras, fancy material settings (for the windshields), and ... heck, it just looks cool.

I'd be willing to allocate some time to bring this into a shape that is "less buggy".
But ... how successful that could be depends on many unknowns

I could try to open it in Blender and just hit "export to glTF" with the exporter plugin.
I could try to re-convert it with the current (latest) state of COLLADA2GLTF
If one of them works out-of-the box: Yay 💯
But this is unlikely. So if there are any issues with that:
- which modifications for the source model may be necessary to "make it work" (and maybe not even how to apply them - I'm not a blender expert...)
- what causes the possible issues in either the Blender exporter or COLLADA2GLTF, how these could be fixed, and how much effort that would be...

Ed Mackey · Answer 3 · Thu May 13 2021 21:10:30 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

This model shows a dark city with a ton of illuminated windows, yet makes no use of the emissive channel or metallic surfaces. It's a lackluster example of how broken materials were for 3D model files in general before glTF 2.0's core PBR hit the market.

I don't particularly like this model on aesthetic grounds, it looks built with 20-year-old technology. Are there any technical reasons to keep it around?

Ed Mackey · Answer 4 · Thu May 13 2021 21:36:53 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Only one texturemap, the base color map.
Lots of emissive light baked into the base color map.
Lots of geometric detail suggested in the base color map, such as window edges and steel poles, that are not expressed either as geometry or with normal maps.
Metallic features are not marked with PBR metal.
Texture is grainy and noisy up close, with mapping errors scattered about.
Very low contrast between certain building walls and the city floor. Some structures are almost indistinguishable (see upper-left, an extra building is almost camouflaged there).
Extremely low-poly, like "runs on my old Voodoo card" kind of low-poly. The nearly-hidden building in the upper-left could be hexagonal, or could be low-poly cylindrical, it's ambiguous.

cx20 · Answer 5 · Thu May 13 2021 22:48:59 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

I also like this model for the same reason as @javagl.
The materials are a bit old-fashioned, but the multiple camera transitions combined with the animations are spectacular.

Don McCurdy · Answer 6 · Fri May 14 2021 02:30:00 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Here's another attempt at fixing the technical issues (not so much the artistic issues) programmatically:

VC-v2.glb.zip

import { dedup, prune, resample } from "@gltf-transform/lib";

// Previously loaded 'document' with NodeIO or WebIO classes.
const root = document.getRoot();

for (const material of root.listMaterials()) {
	// Occlusion textures on this model are a lie. 
	material.setOcclusionTexture(null);

	// Fix transparency on jet windshield.
	if (material.getName() === '_y4y4y4') {
		material
			.setAlpha(0.5)
			.setAlphaMode('BLEND')
			.setRoughnessFactor(0.0);
	}
}

for (const mesh of root.listMeshes()) {
	const name = mesh.getName();

	// Remove flying boxes.
	if (/^cam|^dum|^box|-box/i.test(name)) {
		mesh.dispose();
	}
}

// Clean up.
await document.transform(
	resample(),
	dedup(),
	prune()
);

That's about as far as I'd want to go in trying to fix it, myself. I tend to agree with Ed that the model is showing its age at this point. We don't have many "whole scenes" in the sample repo at the moment — just VC and Sponza, which has its own issues — so I guess I'm inclined to keep it for now. But I wouldn't be at all sorry to replace it with something a bit more modern someday. 😁

Marco Hutter · Answer 7 · Fri May 14 2021 03:22:13 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

@donmccurdy Do you know from the tip of your head which of these issues are caused by "non-sensical input" or by COLLADA2GLTF? (The point is: Maybe one could do what you did there, like removing the "box" nodes and tweaking some materials, so that the updated DAE can be stored in the repo, and converted to proper glTF with COLLADA2GLTF...)

Don McCurdy · Answer 8 · Fri May 14 2021 04:17:00 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Just guessing:

The boxes have names like "cam-box" and "dummy" suggesting that — in some prior life of this model — they were intentionally used for something.
The occlusionTexture entries are likely a conversion bug? Or at least, I can't imagine the same texture was really supposed to act as both AO and base color, and arguably this renders the glTF file invalid since the colorspace can't be both linear and sRGB.
The missing transparency on the windshield is anyone's guess..

Fixing the source DAE model sounds like much more work than I'm interested in myself. Doing so would benefit the COLLADA2GLTF project, but as for the sanity of this sample repository, source files in .gltf, .blend (or even .usd) formats would be more future-proof.

Marco Hutter · Answer 9 · Fri May 14 2021 06:13:10 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Times are changing :-) there once was a reason to keep all the source models in this repo as well.

I'm not sure whether there are any claims (or goals) like ~"The glTFs should be (exactly) the result of applying COLLADA2GLTF to the (DAE) source models". If this is fixed only in the glTF, then the COLLADA source model may be removed (otherwise, it may cause confusion). On the other hand: If there is an issue in COLLADA2GLTF that shows up for this model in particular, the issue should be fixed and the original model could serve as a test case.

I'll try to allocate some time and see what Blender says about this model, with the disclaimers (regarding timeline and success) mentioned above.

(EDIT: If that takes too long, or does not lead anywhere, there's still the option to 1. just update the glTF with the gltf-transform'ed version and deleting the source, and 2. opening an issue in COLLADA2GLTF to investigate that further)

Ed Mackey · Answer 10 · Fri May 14 2021 21:27:41 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

I've always found it odd: We talk about COLLADA being an interchange format, and glTF being a transmission/delivery format, and the two formats have different design goals with different information encoded in each. Why then are we obsessed with having an automated utility that converts one to the other, untouched by human hands? The Venn Diagram of COLLADA contents and glTF contents has some overlap for basic geometry, but there are things on the COLLADA side that are guaranteed to be lost, and things on the glTF side (including all of PBR) that will never be created by such a process.

Many sample models in this repo display and test draft extensions, or recently ratified extensions, for which automated exporters are not available. The sourceModels folder is more of a collection of raw assets that were used in the creation of a glTF, but I think there cannot be a hard requirement for an automated conversion from raw source assets to finished glTF. For example, it's quite helpful to me to keep the Blender projects and GIMP save files around for things like TransmissionRoughnessTest, even though Blender and GIMP cannot reproduce this model by fully automated means.

In the early development of COLLADA2GLTF, we were re-running automated conversion on a routine basis, as both the converter and the 2.0 spec itself were undergoing massive changes at the time (before 2.0 was ratified). Those days are gone, the 2.0 core spec is established and adopted, and the converter is no longer under active development. We shouldn't still be expecting some automated process to get from a raw source interchange format to a final deliverable art asset. And it can still be helpful to keep the raw interchange format around as reference, just drop the expectation of automated conversion.

Ed Mackey · Answer 11 · Fri May 14 2021 21:32:20 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Long story short, I would keep the COLLADA file, and put a copy of Don's code snippet in a text file alongside it.

cx20 · Answer 12 · Fri May 14 2021 22:32:49 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

The missing transparency on the windshield is anyone's guess..

BTW, I found the original display results in the asset store. Indeed, it seems that the windshield of the original model was transparent.

https://3drt.com/store/environments/virtual-city-pack.html

Don McCurdy · Answer 13 · Sat May 15 2021 01:38:21 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

One more update to make the windshield orange again:

convert.ts

import { dedup, prune, resample } from "@gltf-transform/lib";

// Previously loaded 'document' with NodeIO or WebIO classes.
const root = document.getRoot();

for (const material of root.listMaterials()) {
	// Occlusion textures on this model are a lie. 
	material.setOcclusionTexture(null);

	// Fix transparency on jet windshield.
	if (material.getName() === '_y4y4y4') {
		material
			.setAlpha(0.5)
			.setAlphaMode('BLEND')
			.setBaseColorHex(0x7A6005)
			.setRoughnessFactor(0.0)
			.setDoubleSided(true);
	}
}

for (const mesh of root.listMeshes()) {
	const name = mesh.getName();

	// Remove flying boxes.
	if (/^cam|^dum|^box|-box/i.test(name)) {
		mesh.dispose();
	}
}

// Clean up.
await document.transform(
	resample(),
	dedup(),
	prune()
);

VC-v2.glb.zip

Gary Hsu · Answer 14 · Sat May 15 2021 03:04:18 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

there cannot be a hard requirement for an automated conversion from raw source assets to finished glTF

I think we should try to have source assets and instructions for how to go from source to the final asset, just in case some tweaks need to be made. This shouldn't be a requirement though.

Marco Hutter · Answer 15 · Sat May 15 2021 08:32:27 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

I didn't intend to spark a broader discussion about COLLADA, glTF and the role that COLLADA2GLTF plays between them. And I am certainly not "obsessed" with a certain utility or toolchain for the models in general. However, there are COLLADA assets out there. People want to convert them to glTF, even though there may be features that are lost in translation, or features of glTF that remain unused. The VC model is such an asset. COLLADA2GLTF should be able to convert into a glTF that is technically valid, and ... "visually as nice as possible".

Regarding the role of the model itself: I am (and always have been) advocating to have dedicated "Feature Test"-sample models. Yes, the BoomBox looks nice. The BoxAnimated is useful for tests. But there should also be some models that ~"bring everything together" (and... now this is somehow related to KhronosGroup/glTF-Sample-Models#298 ...). There should be a model that shows a real scene, in addition to the ones that show single, static objects wtith various PBR effects. If some artist created a "VC 2.0", with a complex scene consisting of multiple buildings, animated cameras and animated spacecrafts, that would be great. But except for VC, there is no such model...

cx20 · Answer 16 · Sat May 15 2021 09:07:35 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

If some artist created a "VC 2.0", with a complex scene consisting of multiple buildings, animated cameras and animated spacecrafts, that would be great.

I completely agree with your opinion.

neiltrevett · Answer 17 · Sun May 16 2021 03:25:57 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

+1.

I sometimes get told that 'glTF is just good spinning an object'. It would be good to have some compelling assets/tests in the working group samples repo that clearly demonstrate otherwise (while also recognizing that the latest geospatial demos from the likes of Cesium and ESRI are another way of showing glTF use cases include more than spinning a single object).

Leonard Daly (Daly Realism) · Answer 18 · Sat Nov 11 2023 02:47:15 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

There have been no comments in over 2 years. The basic issue still stands - VC (now called VirtualCity) needs replacing. Should this issue be transferred to Sample Assets or a new one created.

Default action is to transfer the issue by 27 November.

Ed Mackey · Answer 19 · Sat Nov 11 2023 03:04:09 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

This issue was originally about a COLLADA conversion error, and we don't have COLLADA (sourceModels) in the new repo. So, I think make a new issue on that repo that VC needs upgrading or replacing, and just link to the relevant points here.

I particularly like the comments above that the glTF samples lack something good that's "not just a spinning object," we should be certain to capture that in the new issue.

cx20 · Answer 20 · Sun Dec 24 2023 15:09:46 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

@DRx3D

The link is probably broken because the folder name was changed. I think you need to match either the folder name or the file name.

As Is:

folde rname	file name
VirtualCity/glTF-Binary	VC.glb
VirtualCity/glTF-Draco	VC.gltf
VirtualCity/glTF-Embedded	VC.gltf
VirtualCity/glTF	VC.gltf

Plan A:

folde rname	file name
VirtualCity/glTF-Binary	VirtualCity.glb
VirtualCity/glTF-Draco	VirtualCity.gltf
VirtualCity/glTF-Embedded	VirtualCity.gltf
VirtualCity/glTF	VirtualCity.gltf

Plan B:

folde rname	file name
VC/glTF-Binary	VC.glb
VC/glTF-Draco	VC.gltf
VC/glTF-Embedded	VC.gltf
VC/glTF	VC.gltf

Marco Hutter · Answer 21 · Sun Dec 24 2023 21:38:27 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

Despite all the open questions related to this model, the solution should be that of 'Plan A'.

(Admittedly, I had not looked into e5159d0 by @DRx3D, but maybe just assumed that the file names had been changed as well).

I'll add a TODO on my list and will do that in the next days 🤞

Marco Hutter · Answer 22 · Tue Dec 26 2023 23:19:03 GMT+0800 (China Standard Time)

The PR is at #89